Full Time House Sitting and Van Life: Life Done Differently

Hey Nomads, welcome to Digital Nomad Stories, the podcast. My name is Anne Claessen and, together with my co-host, kendra Hasse, we interview digital nomads. Why? Because we want to share stories of how they did it. We talk about remote work, online business, location and dependency, freelancing, travel and, of course, the digital nomad lifestyle. Do you want to know more about us and access all previous episodes? Visit digitalnomadsstoriesco. Alright, let's go into today's episode. Hey, hey, nomads, welcome to a new episode of Digital Nomad Stories. Today I'm here with Lisa. She is a virtual marketing manager, marketing consultant and also the author of Life Done Differently One Woman's Journey on the Road Last Travelled, which I'm sure if you're listening to this podcast, that might resonate and or sound familiar. So I'm very excited to have Lisa on the show today. Lisa welcome.

Thank you so much and thanks for having me really excited to be here.

Yeah, so can you tell us a little bit more about what life looks like for you?

Yeah, so life's changed a little bit throughout my Nomad journey. At the moment I am a full-time house sitter. So I'm actually right now in Nelson, at the top of the South Island of New Zealand, and I'm here for a three and a half months house set, which is the longest I've stayed put in about six years. So it's quite a change for me and right now I'm going through a little bit of a I would say, a work phase. So that's client work, you know, marketing work, but also, as you just mentioned, I've got my book out, so I've got a lot of book work to do. So right now there's a lot of time at the computer, which is not, you know, there's been other times over the years where it's more sort of focused on travel and having fun, but right now it's a bit of a you know, hunker down and get some, get some stuff done, sort of phase.

Wow three and a half months of house sitting that is. That is great, honestly. I mean, that also means three and a half months of not paying rent, obviously. So I think that's so cool. How many houses did you do before landing this, this amazing gig that you have now?

Yeah, great question and yeah, that's really awesome. So I've obviously, you know, I've spent four and a half years living and traveling in my camper van around New Zealand and during that time I used to house sit a bit, especially over winter, just to kind of, you know, get out of the, the cold. So that's not how I started, just the occasional house sit here and there. And then I sold the van last year a little bit sort of out of impulse, without really having a plan of what next, and so I've been house sitting basically full time for the last year and yeah, so I mean, but this is like really lucky. It's quite unusual to get a house sit this long. Most of the ones I've done would be. I do like the longer ones, so usually go sort of for the three, four weeks upwards. Otherwise I find you're just constantly picking and unpacking. But yeah, this is definitely the longest in a while.

Yeah, so cool. So, lisa, I have so many questions for you, but maybe to start, you already mentioned you lived in a van for four and a half years and in your book I already read what kind of caused that or like what made you change your life completely and start living in a van. But can you tell us more about that moment that you thought let's go live in a van for four and a half years?

Yeah, sure, happy to. So this goes back in 2017. At the time I was already working as a contractor, so I sort of had like a little tow into the nomad world, but it was very much mostly full-time well, in the office with clients in up in Auckland, new Zealand's biggest city. But at the time I was essentially on a full-time contract with one client and I was also doing a couple of other things on the side and it was great Like I was having, like I was enjoying my work. You know, life was good, I had great friends and everything. But I was 33 and I guess I sort of, in hindsight, describe it as a little bit of a like mini life crisis and really started to question you know, what's next Like, what are the next 30 years of my life gonna look like? And I looked around and no one you know will be surprised to hear that what I saw was, you know, almost exclusively that get married, have kids, buy a house, focus on your career, that sort of path and look, nothing wrong with that. Like I think it's beautiful, you know, if people want to follow that path and create that family, but it just didn't resonate with me, like I just I couldn't see myself in that life, it didn't excite me, it didn't just didn't feel right for me, and so I asked myself, like, what else is there? You know, what do you do if you don't want to follow that path in life? And couldn't really see a lot of examples and role models. And you know, now, like six years later, I'm really into this world. So now I know of a lot of you know examples and role models, but at the time they were really hidden. You know they just, and I think, mainstream enough for you to be aware of all these stories and people if you're not, like, specifically looking for it. Anyway. So I was like, okay, I got to. You know, do something. I don't want to just spend the next 30 years, you know, stuck in an office working away. I don't really want to, you know, have that family of my own and I have the saying that is, if you want change, you have to create space for it, which, you know, for me is all about like, if you just keep doing what you've always done, like you know nothing's ever gonna change. And so I went all out. I'm a very much an all-or-nothing kind of person, so same here.

I was like oh yeah, this is it.

I was like oh yeah, this is it. Big change is needed. And so I pretty much a little bit sort of impulsive decide I'm gonna buy Kemper Van, I'm gonna quit my job and I'm gonna just go and travel around you know, beautiful New Zealand, and my Kemper Van, and I'm gonna figure out who I am when I'm not working, you know, 40-50 hours a week. And so that's how it started. And originally sort of the official plan at the time was that I was just gonna do it for a summer, you know, just to make it feel like less risky and safer, and I knew I had enough savings to get myself through that summer. But then what happened is that I started telling, you know, clients I had at the time, and especially that one client that I was working full-time for, you know, I told them what I wanted to do, thinking I was quitting my job. But what happened is they were like oh, but you know, couldn't you just like, keep working for us remotely while, you know, you're doing your little adventure there? And I didn't want full-time work because I wanted to have time to travel and explore. But I said to them look, I'd be happy to, you know, do like 10 hours a week. And so that's, you know, what we ended up agreeing on. So I set off and that kind of sort of stumbled into being a digital nomad. It wasn't really part of the plan as such, but you know, there I was living in my van being a digital nomad, working sort of, you know, 10-15 hours a week which covered all my bills, and it was perfect and loved it so much. And then it kind of from there, you know, took a life out of its own and you know, in the next sort of four and a half years I just kept going.

Crazy, crazy story Especially also like wanting to quit your job and then being presented with that opportunity. I think that's really great because I know a lot of people, including myself, like I wanted. I knew, okay, there's nomad, life is what I want to do, but then how, as in, how am I gonna make money and actually sustain myself in this lifestyle, which is always, for many people, a big question. So it's really great to hear that. For you, that was maybe a little bit more the other way around, where that was the easy part. But how was it to go from having a traditional lifestyle, you know, living in a house or an apartment, going into the office every day, to then all of a sudden live in a van, a much smaller space with so much freedom in one way, but also you know you have to take care of the van and of yourself. And how was that transition for you?

Yeah, it was awesome, I loved it. It was just, you know, from day one. It was just amazing and I think you know what happened and I've heard others, travelers and nomads talk about this too is that you go through this initial phase. That's almost like your honeymoon, with the lifestyle Right. So I always look back and like that first summer and autumn that was like the most, you know, free and exciting time of this whole journey and it's almost like the first. You know, six months were the easiest out of all of it because you're just so free and careless and I was just so living in the moment and I loved like the best thing. I always like I often get asked so what's the best thing you've learned from living in a van and your journey? And it's actually something I learned that very like first summer and autumn, early on, and that's just like how amazing it feels to have time. You know, because I think a lot of us like we're so busy in our lives and I was like that, you know, living in Auckland, my life was so busy just rushing to work and things, and then I went to like living in my van, you know, working 10, 15 hours a week. I had so much time to explore, go for walks, do things, just sit and drink coffee and, you know, enjoy the moment without having to worry about the 20 things. Am I to do less that I should be doing? And that was really magical for me. And then, sort of related to that, like I kind of you know, realized hey, I've been living this awesome life and I live in a 20 year old van. Life is super simple. I don't actually need all these like materialistic items that I thought I needed, you know, like the fancy home and all the clothes and the shoes, and you know, you go from like having a full wardrobe full of clothes and shoes to like having, you know, four outfits and three pairs of shoes, and life was awesome. And that, to me, was like a real sort of turning point and my mind sat and made me realize that, hey, I can have a really awesome life without having to, you know, slave away in an office for the next 30 years, and just to really realize that you know there are other things more important to me and that add more value to my life than you know materialistic things and money, and so that was really great. So the transition was super easy and super fun. But then as it kind of became normal life, that's when you know some of the sort of challenges from normal life started to sneak in again and then you know you sort of started to worry more about the future and so you know, so that would come. But yeah, the transition initially was just awesome. I just loved it from day one.

Awesome, that's so good to hear. And yeah, I mean the picture that you painted. I could totally see that. You know like just driving around in a van and then drinking a coffee with a beautiful view in nature. You're just sitting there, you know, just like relaxing. It sounds really good. It sounds honestly like I did a first like mini van trip of literally one night two weeks ago, my boyfriend's parents' day. Have built out a van last year. I want to say, yeah, I think it was last year and this was the first time that we got to borrow it and you know, just drive around with it. So we went to the ocean here in Germany and we spent one night in the van and I also I loved it. I was like I understand the hype now so I could totally see that that is a great transition.

Yeah, I reckon it's such a great way for digital nomads. I mean, you sort of depending, of course, where you are like, if you're in Europe, you can cover a lot of countries in a van. You know, if you're in New Zealand, you're basically stuck in New Zealand with your van. But it's awesome as a digital nomad because you kind of have your space, like, I mean, I've heard a lot of nomads, including on your podcast, you know, talk about the challenges of like finding good internet and a quiet space to do meetings, and you know that sort of stuff you don't really have that problem with. You know, when you've got your van, you've got your office, I could just, you know, sometimes I'd be like driving somewhere and then I would just like pull up on the side of the road, do a meeting and then, you know, go on. Or you know, I remember one really awesome day. There's I'm a kite surfer and so I was out kite surfing but I had a meeting and so I literally just like came in, landed the kite, tried to sort of, you know, get my hair, you know, looking presentable, put a sweater over my wetsuit, you know, did a meeting for half an hour and then took the sweater back off and went back out, and so it's really great to do when you've got a van and you've got like your home, you know, parked right there and everything's unique. So I reckon it's like a perfect combination van life and digital nomading.

Yeah, very cool, I love that. Yeah, oh my God, yeah. Is this gonna be the next phase of nomading for me? Maybe, maybe, but I also would like to know more about the challenges that you encountered. What was, would you say, the main challenge after the honeymoon phase of van life?

Yeah, it's sort of there were two the first one and this is, I think, one. That's sort of maybe a little bit, you know, particular to me. So I'm cursed, I think, in a way, with having. So my highest values are, on the one hand, freedom and flexibility and that whole you know kind of view of life, but I also really value security, and part of that is financial security. And so for me there came a point in about sort of 18 months to two years into van life where I started to think about that more hey, what is the future? You know, what am I gonna do? You know, it's great to like live in the moment and see all these places, but how am I gonna make sure that I'm financially secure in the future? Traveling around like that, I met some people who, unfortunately for them, like living in a van, had become a must do so. It wasn't an option anymore, it wasn't a choice anymore, but they were doing it because they felt or they couldn't afford another lifestyle, and so that to me was always like something I wanted to avoid. I wanted to make sure that it always would be a choice and that if I wanted to settle down and, you know, render a house or an apartment or even buy or something. I'd be in that position. So that became a bit of a challenge and it continues to be a challenge, to be honest sort of balancing those two values within me. You know, on the one hand wanting a lot of freedom and flexibility and time, but on the other hand really valuing that financial security and planning ahead for the future as well. So that's sort of you know my kind of personal challenge, I think. And then the other one, I think is one that very common and I've heard a lot of people talk about it on your podcast too the Lekker community. You know the, the life's awesome. You, you know you'd travel and anyone who's ever been to New Zealand like you can probably easily see how you spent four and a half years traveling around one country without getting bored of it. You know it's an amazing place. But I started to feel a bit disconnected from people and from a community, even though you know being or traveling predominantly in New Zealand meant I would still see a lot of my friends, you know, a few times a year. But you just don't. You're not really part of a community anymore. You're part of the you know, nomad community and the VanLive community, but by definition they're all people who are constantly on the move and it's actually really hard to make meetups happen and and I'm someone who needs to spend a lot of time with someone before I sort of really feel connected to that person, and so that's, yeah, that became increasingly a challenge and that's actually the main reason why I sold the van last year, because I thought I wanted to settle down and and stay put. And now it's almost a year later and I kind of don't really want to anymore and I'm sort of more thinking about, you know, hitting the road again and traveling, because it's sort of, you know, so things change. But yeah, that's definitely a challenge, just like feeling that sense of belonging and connection to a community when you're constantly traveling yeah, I totally relate to both of those challenges.

To be honest, I, when I started my Nomad journey, I kind of thought that I had to give up a career and also, you know, like making good money and also enhancing, like you know, getting further and further into a career. I thought, well, it's either nomadding or it is a career. Turned out not to be the case. Like I have been able to build a career while nomadding, but it's. It's also challenging, right, because to be able to really work on your career, you also have to put time into it and that's you could also travel in that time. So, I totally hear you just wanted to let you know it's not just you, because I kind of feel the same way. And, yeah, the community aspect I, you know, may have expected that answer because, like you said, so many nomads have that same challenge. How are you going about those challenges right now? Like, have you found some things that work really well for you, like from a financial security perspective and or the community part?

yeah. So the financial security one is a bit easier to answer as of. And ultimately, a few years ago I sort of, you know, once I realized that, hey, this is actually really important to me too and I want to be able to enjoy life and my freedom. But I also need that, you know, financial security, especially long-term. Like I'm not super worried about next year, I'm sort of more thinking about, you know, 20, 30 years from now. And and I think one thing you know with pointing out that the way I do the digital nomad life is probably one of the most affordable ways to do it. So I'm actually able to save a lot of money because, like, living in a van is quite cheap, house-sitting is even cheaper. So I was able to save quite a bit of money and I did two winters, one by choice and one kind of forced and where I did a lot of work. So I really just like hunkered down, worked crazy hours for two winters and then by the end of that that put me in a position where I could afford to buy a property. So I managed to buy an investment property and so that's kind of like my long-term financial security kind of. You know I now have to. Obviously it's an investment property, so there's rent income that helps cover the mortgage, but I still have, you know, some responsibility to cover the mortgage. But I sort of now feel more like, okay, I have a long-term plan, you know, I know that there is a yeah, there's a plan. And in terms of this sort of day-to-day I've been experimenting and I haven't quite found the right balance for me yet. Like I had a few years where basically I tried to work a lot more in winter and then work less in summer and travel, and that obviously had its perks, you know, because you really get to enjoy summer and you know and and that freedom and flexibility. And right now I'm trying something a little bit different where I'm trying to sort of just be a bit more balanced and work, you know, 20-25 hours a week more or less consistently. I haven't really, you know, can't really say that one works better than the other, but I think ultimately, the the message is balance. You know, one way or another, whether it's phases or you know, a day-to-day balance, and that's kind of been the answer for me. The community part is harder, so I definitely haven't figured that out and, like I mentioned before, I sold the van last year thinking that I want to just stay put somewhere and build that community and really be connected again. And if I'm honest, there's two things that have ultimately kind of stopped me from doing it so far and one's definitely just the travel excitement and just the excitement of being in a new place. I love to just like being a new place and explore all the new surroundings and walks and everything. So really kind of miss that being. I spent a few months in Auckland and just missed sort of being out and about and exploring new places. But the other part is financial considerations. Once you've lived the way I have for as long as I have, just not needing a lot of money the idea of now having to pay rent or even a mortgage is quite scary. In a way it would change my situation completely, like having that additional pressure, especially as a contractor where income is kind of dependent on finding clients. Right now, if I don't find work for a couple of months or work's really slow for a while, I don't really worry that much because my expenses are so low. But if I had rent or a mortgage to pay, it would just change that completely. I'd be a lot more worried about that, and so that stopped me really from doing it for now. I'm pretty sure I will eventually, but I think I'm just going to enjoy freedom for a couple more years and then maybe settle down somewhere.

Yeah, I mean this also sounds very relatable to me. I was exactly the same. We now have an apartment here in Germany that we're renting. We didn't buy, and it was so scary to me, going from just Airbnb hopping just like a month, not even month to month. We would spend a few weeks in a place and then see like, oh, what do we want to do? Do we want to stay? Do we want to go To? Then signing a lease and just having to pay rent even when you're not here. It was so weird for me. Yeah, but someone gave me really good advice and that was you don't have to be there all the time. It is not a prison and I don't know. Like it obviously makes total sense, but for me I really had to hear that. I needed to hear that. That I was like oh yeah, it is my apartment, but I can still leave. Like I can also leave for months on end, I just have to pay rent. But other than that, like I don't have to physically be here. And for me that was just such a mindset shift. I mean it sounds really stupid when I say it like this, but I just I needed to hear that.

You know it's actually. It's funny you say that because it's actually something you said in another episode that really stuck with me. I think it's actually like a. Maybe it might be a month or two ago now that I listened to it, but I think you said something along the line. So, if you really appreciate having the freedom to be home when you want to be home and to be gone when you want to be gone, and so that that's kind of part of freedom for you now is like having the freedom to be home, and I was like, yeah, you know what that's kind of. So I think that's sort of my ultimate goal right Is to having a base and having that place, but also having the freedom to go when I want to. And I just think right now I feel like I'm not quite there yet. Like I feel like right now, having a place as a home would limit my freedom to travel too much for financial reasons. I would feel like I'm a lot more, you know, have to stay here, have to work. That sort of approach and maybe that's maybe mostly in my head, you know, maybe I just need to like get over myself. But yeah, could totally relate to what you said there, that was very good yeah.

I mean, I have exactly been through this trajectory that you said, like I, I couldn't imagine paying rent for a place that I was just not staying at for a while and that really had. I also had to grow into this mindset, like you, what I, what I mentioned in that other episode, where it was like, okay, great, I can just have this apartment to come back to. That's how I feel now, but it has. We've had this apartment for two years now and we also, when we were away for six months, we rented it out and that had pros and cons, obviously because we didn't have to pay a rent. But then also, when we came back, apparently pigs lived in this apartment and not humans, so that was very unfortunate.

So that was a bit of a disappointment, I would say.

But then we didn't pay rent for an apartment where we were not living for six months. So you know, like pros and cons, but yeah, it has been a journey to find that balance because I do feel like it is a balance now. So, yeah, so interesting to hear that you're kind of going through similar thoughts and experiences, so interesting that we have that in common. Can you also talk a little bit more about how it is like going from selling the van to then house sitting more full time? Like how was that for you? Because I mean, you did mention that while living on the van, like winters, you would do some house sitting. But how was it different to all of a sudden not have the van anymore?

Yeah, actually it was different. So the biggest difference is that with the van I sort of always had a place to stay. You know, I always had that backup plan, whereas now, with house sitting, sometimes it is a bit. I feel a bit more exposed because the reality is like you. You know, with house sitting you never know what happens, like someone's travels could get canceled or you know they could have to come back earlier or something like that. So if you know, say, I get a call from the owners where I'm staying right now, tomorrow, and they're saying you know, something happened, we're coming back next week, then you know I'd have to move out and I wouldn't have anywhere to go. And I mean that's a bit dramatic because I do have friends that would, you know, take me in for a while. So I'm very lucky in that regard. I wouldn't be homeless, but the van always was. You know, you have that home and yeah, so that's been a big change. I really actually miss living in that small space. I sometimes, you know, living in like big houses, I feel kind of lost and somehow it doesn't. Yeah, I miss the sort of cosy, comfortable space of the van. I am actually thinking about getting one again and sort of, you know, because, yeah, I really just do miss it a lot, so that was another change too and you're like constantly pecking and unpacking. That's the other thing. You know. One of the great things traveling with a van is so you have, you know, all your stuff and it's kind of like, you know, always got your own little apartment with you, whereas with house sitting, you know, yeah, I mean three and a half months right now, obviously it's great, but when you've got shorter house sets, you're sort of constantly pecking and unpacking your stuff. So that kind of, yeah, and in that regards, van life actually feels a lot more stable.

Yeah, yeah, I can see that. I can totally see that. It is a little apartment on wheels basically, and you're like you said, you have all your stuff. Yeah, have you ever considered nomadding around like outside of New Zealand and going overseas and doing more like the international nomadding?

A lot of people ask me that, and I do think about it sometimes. There's two sort of reasons that stop me from doing it. The first one is I just love New Zealand, Like it is the best country in the world. Sorry, I'm totally biased here, but you know it's just such an amazing place to live and there's so much to do and see. And the other thing is it's just so easy to travel in this one country and so for me I've got a lot of activities, so I travel around with a bike, a pedal board, a surfboard, kite surfing gear, and I really love having all of that with me and being able to use that to explore new areas. And obviously you couldn't do that if you're traveling internationally. You know I could maybe take sort of, you know, a kite and a kite board and that be about it. So you'd be a lot more limited in that regards. So that's sort of the other thing that's stopping me. And also with work, I sort of still like feel like with what I do it does come in handy occasionally to be in New Zealand because I can. You know, I do relatively senior work and most of my clients up in Auckland, and so if there's ever a really important meeting or something I can just fly up or drive up if I'm close enough. So that certainly has advantages as well. So, yes, I think about it sometimes. I'd certainly, you know, have a bunch of places around the world that I would love to go visit, Like Hawaii is really, you know, high on my list, and I'm actually doing a trip to Europe next year to see family. But, yeah, in terms of sort of nomading like long-term overseas, I don't think it's on the cards right now.

Yeah, too much to see in New Zealand. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I understand, I mean I haven't been yet, but my best friend has been to New Zealand. She did a van trip for I want to say like three weeks maybe, and she's obsessed, Like we've traveled a lot together, and she says that New Zealand is her favourite country in the world now and that she wants to go back. And yeah, that she highly recommended for me. And you know, yeah, she's really, really, really, yeah, she won on it. The sun has the same opinion.

Almost everyone does. I mean, you know, I came here 16 years ago. It was supposed to be for a year, so I was still at university, I was doing like a student exchange and it was supposed to be for a year. And 16 years later, you know, so it has that effect on you. I think people come here and just love it. Yeah, it's one way to put it.

Exactly. People want to hear the full story of your life change and living in the van and everything. Of course they have to read your book. Can you tell us a little bit more like pitch the book, tell us why we should read it and what we can find there?

Yeah, of course. So the book's my story and it sort of tells you know basically what I've told you in a lot more detail and starts really with that doubt. You know the first chapter is called Doubts, back in 2017, when I just wasn't sure where to go with my life and knew I didn't want to do what everyone else is doing, but, you know, didn't know what else there is. And then follows that journey of living in the van and all the ups and downs and just kind of follows my journey, sort of making peace with following my own path. You know, a big, big part of it for me was choosing not to have children and choosing not to return to that, you know, busy, career-focused life and, yeah, and just reflecting on all of that, I met so many amazing people which have really guided me on my journey and I learned so much from them. So it kind of tells you know the lessons I've learned from those people, a lot of them nomads themselves. Yeah, and that's kind of the short pitch for the book. So if you, I would say you know anyone who likes to read or inspiring travel, adventure, self-discovery sort of stories, or just wants to, you know, hear more about what it's like to live in a van, wants to hear more about what it's like to travel in New Zealand, and anyone, I'd say you know anyone also, and maybe especially woman and younger woman, who is sort of unsure about the children decision and whether they want them or not. You know that might be a, because I think you know if you are in that boat you get a lot of messages and content around motherhood and how great it is and you should do it. So here's maybe another view of that, and you know how great life could be without it, but also some of the challenges that come with it.

So, yeah, yeah, awesome, and I love inspirational books and especially when it's about travel. I mean, I think it's safe to say we all love it here. Listening to this podcast, you probably love it and, yeah, I'm really enjoying the book, so I highly recommend it. Where can people find it?

So the easiest is Amazon, but it's also on a number of other stores, so Bands and Nobles, it is on Kobo, so anyone who rates you know on the Kobo e-book reader and, yeah, a bunch of other stores. So I would say you know wherever you buy your books. Hopefully you'll be able to buy it.

Okay, awesome. We'll also make sure to add a link to the show notes so that you can also just go there and just easily click the link If people want to follow you and follow you your journey around New Zealand. Are you on social media? Is there a way to follow you?

Yeah, there is On Facebook and Instagram, life Done Differently NZ. So at the NZ for New Zealand, at the end the website is Life Done Differently, so that'd be maybe the easiest way to find it and then find the socials from there. But yeah, and would love to you know you can follow me, but I also love to connect with Nomads and other parts of the world. So, you know, just love to hear from anyone and follow all of you back too.

Awesome, perfect. Well, we'll make sure to also add those links to the show notes. So thank you so much for sharing your well, the short version of your story with us today and also writing a book with your full story so we can learn even more from you. It has been really awesome to have you on the podcast today, lisa. So thank you so much for being here and also thank you for listening today. So don't forget to follow Lisa, get the book and come back next week for another episode. And that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it very, very much. I would appreciate it even more if you could leave a review on Apple Podcasts for me. That way, more people can find this podcast, more people can hear the inspiring stories that we're sharing, and the more people we can impact for the better. So, thank you so much if you are going to leave a review. I really appreciate you and I will see you in the next episode.