Transcript
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Hey nomads.
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Welcome to Digital Nomad Stories, the podcast.
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My name is Anne Klaassen and, together with my co-host, kendra Hasse, we interview digital nomads.
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Why?
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Because we want to share stories of how they did it.
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We talk about remote work, online business, location independency, freelancing, travel and, of course, the digital nomad lifestyle.
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Do you want to know more about us and access all previous episodes?
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Visit digitalnomadstoriesco.
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All right, let's go into today's episode.
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Hey, hey nomads.
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Welcome to a new episode.
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Today I'm here with Adam Rosen.
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You might have heard him on a podcast already because he was on the show two years ago and I'm really excited to have Adam back because in two years, of course, a lot has happened.
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A lot has happened in his business and there's more business news than you'll tell us about, but of course, also travel wise.
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You know, in two years you can travel a lot and I know Adam has.
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So, adam, welcome back.
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And thank you for having me.
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I'm excited to be back on the podcast, so thanks again for having me.
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Yeah, so just a super short recap what we talked about last time for you, adam, but also for our audience, of course, and we'll link the full episode in the show notes when you're listening.
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But last time we talked a lot about how you exited your startup that you started and ran for five years.
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So that startup got acquired and then you started a new, completely remote company in cold email outreach.
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So that's the super short version of what we talked about last time and the new business that you were building back then sort of cool outreach business.
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That one was fully remote and we talked through the differences between building a startup in an office versus remote while traveling and all that good stuff.
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But, adam, can you tell us a little bit more about what work life looks like now?
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It's funny when we first spoke, anne, I was still in the early stages of my digital nomad journey, starting the business and trying to even get my bearings of how to build a real business while traveling the world.
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And I still have that same company email outreach company as when we first spoke.
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But when we first spoke it was in the early stages and now we're in a much bigger stage than what we were then in terms of now we have over 60 customers.
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We're doing a lot of different things, from our typical cold outrage to implementing new verticals, building out newsletters for folks and so on and so forth.
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So there's been a lot of growth with that business.
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But the digital nomad piece has continued to be a staple for myself and also for my business partner, where we've continued to travel about half the year together and then the other half the year we'll go our separate ways.
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So it's still been that fun challenge of learning how do you continue to build a business, not just with co-founders, but even with the company growing.
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We're now up to I think it's nine employees right now now nine full-time employees and recently we bought a newsletter and that newsletter is a digital nomad focused newsletter.
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It's called the nomadcloudcom.
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We bought it with about 5,000 subscribers on it and now we're over 50,000 subscribers on it, so that's been exciting.
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And, yeah, just continue to figure out what's the best way to continue growing professionally while also making sure that I'm able to learn from traveling the world in the most beautiful places in the world.
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Wow, that is huge growth for that newsletter, just point that out from 5,000 to 50,000.
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That is insane, that's really cool.
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And I have been a subscriber to Nomad Cloud for ages.
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I don't know exactly when I subscribe, but I read it most of the time.
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So I thought it was so cool when you told me that you acquired that newsletter.
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Yeah, so cool.
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Told me that you acquired that newsletter, yeah, so cool.
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So talk us a little bit through the travels though.
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Yeah, where have you been?
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And like, kind of how has it been to travel, to keep traveling and then also growing the company so much I mean going from practically zero last time we spoke to now nine full-time employees, so many clients, so many new offers that you have.
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I mean that's a lot of work.
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So, yeah, how has that been while traveling?
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Yeah, that's the key, because, for me, it's not just about traveling the world.
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That's an amazing, beautiful thing, but it's also not just about working either.
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For me, the key is how do you mix the two, how do you have your cake and eat it too?
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And that's what we're trying to do with our travel lifestyle while we work, because I hear from a lot of people that will see some of the travels that I'm doing and they say how do you do it Like, are you working?
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Are you just traveling?
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They're really curious of how you're able to do it.
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And for those that are listening that have a business, your own business now is the best time ever in human history to travel while building your business, if you're an employee.
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I know there's more and more companies now that are not doing as much remote hiring, but there are still plenty of companies that are willing to hire remote workers, so it's the best time in human history to have your cake and eat it too, if that's something that you desire.
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So, for me, this past year for 2023, I spent the first few months in Hawaii, then I spent a month in Paris, I spent a month in Florence, italy.
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I spent two months in Montenegro, some time in Croatia as well.
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Then I spent five weeks on the Amalfi Coast, specifically Positano, a few months in London and then I wrapped the year up again in a little bit in New York, but primarily in Hawaii, to wrap up 2023.
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So those are my 2023 travels.
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Amazing.
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That sounds really good.
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What does your week look like?
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You said you work, of course, but then also enjoying your travels.
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How do you balance that?
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It really depends on where I am in the world.
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So my clients are on East Coast hours, and my team works on East Coast US hours.
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So for me, depending on where I am, I'll wake up a little bit later and stay up a little bit later, or I'll wake up a little bit earlier and go to bed a little bit earlier.
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So, like, for example, in Hawaii, we're now six hours behind East Coast in the US.
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So I will wake up a little bit earlier, versus if I'm in Europe and we're six hours behind the East Coast US.
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I'll wake up a little bit later because I know I'll have to do a little bit more work later in the evening.
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Now, with that said, though, one thing I've been very strict on is I very rarely will take early morning meetings or late night meetings.
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I'm very strict with what my schedule is, so, like when I'm in Hawaii, I won't take meetings usually before 8 am Eastern time.
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When I'm in Europe, I rarely will take meetings after 9 or 10 pm Eastern time.
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So I do make sure that I try to balance out my days where I know what time I'm gonna be doing my focused work, what time I'm going to be doing my more creative work and then what time I'm going to be taking my meetings, because if not, it's really easy for the data to just run away from you, for you to be disorganized and for your calendar to run you, which none of us want to be in that position of.
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We want to, as much as possible, run our calendar more than our calendar running us.
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Yeah, exactly, I definitely agree on setting boundaries in a work schedule.
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That's so important.
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I'm in Europe at the moment.
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My clients are also in the US, so I personally love being in Europe with US clients because I have the whole morning to myself every day, so I can sleep in every day and I actually do that.
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I rarely have an alarm and then I just do my things that I want to do.
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So I work out, I go for a walk, I sit in the sun I don't know like maybe explore, go for a coffee and then around two or three pm, I start work, I do a few hours of work, have dinner and then, if I have to, I'll do a few more hours work and that's that's my day.
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Then I relax for an hour, go to bed and then you know.
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So I wasn't sure about this, but I made this change like quite recently, but for me this has been such a game changer in work-life balance.
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So, yeah, absolutely agree Boundaries, finding a work schedule that works for you, not taking super early or super late calls I think that's really good advice.
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Yeah, just knowing when are you most productive and in what areas.
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What time are you best on your meetings, what time of day do you do your best busy or focused work.
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So just understanding yourself.
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And of course, every situation's different.
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If you work for a company or if you do have certain clients that only want to meet with you at certain times, you might have to adjust your schedule.
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But I'm with you and I always love my European time zone hours because it gives you a whole morning to yourself.
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If you want to go to the cafe and relax and have an espresso as you watch the waves crash on the shoreline, you could do that.
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Where in Hawaii, it's like I wake up and immediately have a ton of Slack messages, I have a ton of emails to get back to and sometimes meetings right away.
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So it definitely also depends on what type of worker are you.
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Do you prefer working in the morning or the evening, and maybe that's how you choose where you're going to be living accordingly.
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Yeah, exactly, I used to just work normal European hour like, and with normal European hours, I mean like kind of nine to five hours.
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But then I was.
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I already had US clients, but then I always had the feeling that I was behind because I would open my laptop in the morning and then I had all these emails that came in in my evening when I was just not working, and I felt like I was always behind.
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So then I made this change and it feels so much better for me.
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I know some people hate working in the evening, but yeah, it's been such a good change for me and good to hear that it works the same for you.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah, very cool.
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So do you also go to specific places for I don't know, like lifestyle reasons, because you want to do something or because I mean time zone might also be a factor?
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You said that Europe is really good or are there some places that you won't go for work reasons or like work schedule reasons?
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Yeah, like, for example, I would love to go to Asia, especially Japan.
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I would love to spend time in Japan.
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But the only challenge with being in a place like Japan if you work on US East coast hours is the time zone is flipped, and some people are great with that and are fine with that.
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I know for my personality that would be really difficult to do.
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So I like to go into time zones that are a little bit easier to manage.
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That's why I tend to like, being from Europe, to be in the US, even in being in Hawaii, which is a very different time zone than the mainland, but still it's manageable Six hours, five hours either way.
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So that's definitely a big thing and why I don't go to certain places Like I would.
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Again, I would love to go to Japan, but I know work-wise that would be difficult to do.
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And then I always want to go to a place that inspires me, places where I'm going to be inspired by the culture, by the architecture, by the food, by the people.
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I want to go to places that are going to be inspiring, places that are beautiful, but also places that are going to have good Wi-Fi, because I've also traveled to some countries where the Wi-Fi just isn't typically as strong or there's just fewer options for good Wi-Fi, but a lot of how we'll do things like right now.
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My business partner and I we're going to be linking up again for travels in April and we've been just basically looking at a map and where do we want to go, and you find a place that you're interested in.
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You start looking at Airbnbs and then you go to the spot that you think is going to be the best balance of both.
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It'll inspire you just to live there day to day but it'll also inspire you work-wise and will be a good place to be productive.
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Yeah, cool.
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So what's the place for April, have you?
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already decided.
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We're deciding right now.
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One of the places we found it's a place called Assisi.
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It's in Tuscany and Italy, and it's not far from Rome, it's not far from Florence, it's only a few hours from there, and it looks like a beautiful place.
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That's a little bit of a hidden gem.
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So we might be going there, but we're also looking at going back to Florence, which we've spent a lot of time there.
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We're also looking at a few places in South America too.
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So we're deciding right now, but it looks like right now we might be going to a place called Assisi in Italy.
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Cool, that sounds amazing.
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That sounds really good.
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So, adam, in the past year or two years of travel I must say two years since we last spoke what are some things that you learned about nomading that maybe you didn't expect?
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Well, in terms of even just people, that nomad the biggest problem I've seen and this is partly why we even bought the nomadcloudcom newsletter is we've just seen a lot of people and we saw too especially when we first started nomading that it was just about getting by.
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How can we just make enough money to pay for the hostel or to backpack around this area?
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And we found that there's a lot of people that don't want to just get by when they travel and as they live their digital nomad journey, but they want to thrive.
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They want to make as much money and create as much abundance as they can while traveling the world, and that's something that we feel strongly about, and what we're hoping to help people do for themselves and hopefully inspire people to do, is show them that you can have your cake and eat it too.
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You can travel the world and make as much money as you desire.
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Now, are there benefits to being in one set location?
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Are there benefits to being in New York City, or in Austin, texas, or in Boston?
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Sure, but you can also be successful, really successful, build a real business with real cashflow, with real money, with real success while traveling the world, and that's been the key that we've been trying to focus on for ourselves Again, partly because we've heard so many people that are just making enough to get by, and the problem with that is, if the money stops flowing, you can no longer be a nomad, you can no longer travel the world, you can no longer explore the world.
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So that's a key for us is how do we help people make as much money as they desire while being in the most beautiful places in the world?
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Yeah, exactly, you want to make sure that the lifestyle is sustainable as well, like financially sustainable.
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I think it's really important and it's interesting that you say this, because when I started nomading, that was my goal to just make enough so that I could travel or like backpack around Asia a little bit.
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I was like, oh, I don't need a lot of money.
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You know, I don't care about this, because I felt like I had to choose between a career and nomading, and I learned by you know, meeting a lot of people, listening to so many podcast interviews and things like that, consuming a lot of content, like, hey, wait, I think it is actually possible to do both at the same time, and I think it's a very important message.
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So I think it's really good that you're sharing that with other nomads and with new nomads maybe.
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So how do we make enough from this business where we're paying ourselves any amount of money?
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to support our travels.
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Then it's once you get there, you check that off.
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Okay, how do we get to this next checkpoint of X amount of dollars?
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Then how do we get to the next checkpoint of Y amount of dollars?
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And then you just keep building.
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But you have to start somewhere, and the first point is being sustainable and being able to sustain your lifestyle and then growing from there.
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So I think that's amazing, ann, that that's how you started.
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Now the Nomad Cloud.
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Part of what we're doing is we're sharing the same type of content that we've shared in the past.
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So what's going on in the Nomad world, places that have good visas, places that are good to work, how you can secure those visas, hidden gems with travel.
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So that's a lot of what we've shared in the past.
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But right now we've been beta testing this new opportunity called Nomad Plus, which we'll be launching shortly, because we've seen that there's a huge desire for jobs and career growth in the nomad world and there just aren't a lot of great resources out there that support that.
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So we'll be unveiling that to help people with their resumes, help people find remote jobs, help people negotiate higher salaries with those jobs, help connect them to recruiters.
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We want to make sure that we can be the staple where people know they can find out the coolest stuff in the digital nomad world, like what you do, ann, and also marry that with how do you make as much abundance as you would desire, whether it's through building your own business or growing your own business, or if it's finding companies, great companies that are looking to hire really smart workers that just would be working remotely.
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So that's the next phase of the Nomad Cloud that we're really excited to unveil.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So in your travels, have you been to a location where you thought, okay, this is where the truly ambitious people are, this is where the nomads are who want this, who want to grow their business, really build a career, and they're not the kind of nomads that just travel and get by and they're happy with that, but they want more.
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Have you found that community in a specific location that you could recommend?
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Not in a specific location, but it's more of just the everyday experiences, the people that you meet at a coffee shop, the people that you meet at a conference, the people that you meet at a coworking space is you hear so many people that say, oh man, you're living the dream.
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I want to travel the world, but I also want to be able to build my career, but I just don't know how to do it.
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I don't know where to start.
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I hear it so even from you know people 50, 60 years old that are like man, how do I do that?
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I wish I could do that.
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I hear that all the time.
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I wish I could do it.
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I wish I could do it.
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You, how you can do it?
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Because it's so rare.
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Like we're taught either you can work in a more traditional workspace or you can live a digital nomad life.
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But the perception that's why I don't even love using the word digital nomad, because I feel like it has a negative connotation to it.
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Like I feel like people just view it as like you're backpacking and you're not a serious worker, which is not the case.
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I've met so many nomads, people that travel the world that are great workers, that produce excellent results that would be great to work with, and those are the stories that we want to share more, so that more people that again want to grow in their careers feel like they can do that while also exploring the most beautiful place in the world.
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And you don't have to wait until you're retired to go to Asia, to go to Europe, to go to South America.
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You can do that today while you grow professionally.
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Yeah, I love it and I think it's also there are more opportunities in so many different industries.
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So I went to law school.
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I was going to be a lawyer, decided not to go for that, and I had a person on the podcast, I think, last year, and she is actually a lawyer, but she's remote, fully, fully remote freelance, and I just love that this exists now.
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So I think you know there are so many opportunities and I think it's really great that you bring those opportunities to the people who need them and who want to become nomadic and they need a little help with getting their career there, because, yeah, I mean, it's so true that the financial aspect and making enough money to sustain travel, that's very, very important.
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Yeah, and it's 2024.
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In 2014, this would have been very difficult.
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In 2004, it would have been almost impossible.
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In 1994, it would be just about impossible.
00:19:43,496 --> 00:19:51,691
But in 2024, myself included my entire company is remote, even my sister, who works with us full time.
00:19:51,691 --> 00:19:53,296
Now she's fully remote.
00:19:53,296 --> 00:20:01,615
All of my employees are from all over the world that produce great results, and all they need is Wi-Fi and their laptop, and so many companies are switching to this.
00:20:01,615 --> 00:20:06,296
Now are companies bringing their employees back to the office more than they have been over the last few years?
00:20:06,296 --> 00:20:12,457
Yes, however, there's a benefit for companies to hire remote workers.
00:20:12,457 --> 00:20:14,190
There's less money you have to pay.
00:20:14,190 --> 00:20:15,032
In certain areas.
00:20:15,032 --> 00:20:18,391
You don't have to pay for the office space, so they save money.
00:20:18,391 --> 00:20:29,615
As long as you can produce quality work and show that you're trustworthy, there's still a lot of companies out there that are happy to pay a good price for high quality workers, even if they're working virtually.
00:20:29,615 --> 00:20:35,362
But today more than ever, it's not just possible, it's probable if you can be an effective worker.
00:20:43,785 --> 00:20:44,286
Yeah, I definitely agree.
00:20:44,286 --> 00:20:45,869
Where do you see the digital nomad, I would almost say industry?
00:20:45,869 --> 00:20:49,438
Where do you see digital nomadism go in the next few years, let's say like five to 10 years?
00:20:49,984 --> 00:20:59,836
I just think, almost digital nomad the phrase will start to go away because it's going to become, I think, more and more mainstream as more and more companies just hire virtual workers.
00:20:59,836 --> 00:21:06,767
I think digital nomads will just be looked at more like virtual workers, like right now you have in-person workers, you have virtual workers.
00:21:06,767 --> 00:21:11,077
And the term digital nomad I think we want to stay away from it.
00:21:11,077 --> 00:21:18,067
It's a good word to use because it gives you an idea of like okay, adam's a digital nomad, he travels the world and he builds his business.
00:21:18,067 --> 00:21:26,861
But again, I think there's that negative stereotype towards digital nomads versus a virtual worker or a remote worker doesn't have that same negative connotation.
00:21:26,861 --> 00:21:36,933
So I just think, as more and more people become remote workers, I think it'll almost remove the need for the word digital nomad because so many people are able to do it.
00:21:37,335 --> 00:21:39,867
Like for me, I look at myself just as a traveling entrepreneur.
00:21:39,867 --> 00:21:46,440
I'm a traveling entrepreneur that has a global office, versus I'm a digital nomad.
00:21:46,440 --> 00:22:01,028
Digital nomad feels like you're just like your head in the clouds and you're just trying to find yourself and just taking a backpack around the world, which, yeah, that can be the case, but for most people out there, like for yourself and you're a serious worker that produces great results for your clients.
00:22:01,028 --> 00:22:05,377
Like that negative connotation to being a digital nomad should not be attached to you.
00:22:05,377 --> 00:22:08,634
And I see that for so many people that are amazing workers.
00:22:08,634 --> 00:22:27,924
They just want to travel the world and get inspiration and are better because they travel the world and are remote workers and they don't deserve a negative connotation that again, the word digital nomad, I think, can carry yeah.
00:22:27,944 --> 00:22:32,775
I think you have a point where I would not use the term digital nomad on my resume, but then I don't have a resume, so that's probably good for so many reasons.
00:22:32,775 --> 00:22:38,405
But I also think I had a lot of hesitation with using the term digital nomad.
00:22:38,405 --> 00:22:40,476
When I started nomading, especially, I was like I don't know if I'm a digital nomad.
00:22:40,476 --> 00:22:46,513
When I started nomading, especially, I was like I don't know if I'm a digital nomad, you know, because, like, is that really a label I want to use?
00:22:46,513 --> 00:22:57,871
It sounded cliche already at the time, which is more than five years ago, but then I started using it because it is what people are looking for and it covers what we do.
00:22:57,871 --> 00:23:01,817
Right, we work, we travel, so that's why I use it.
00:23:01,817 --> 00:23:19,653
But I do agree with you that when you're looking for a remote opportunity, you might not want to scream from the rooftops that you're a digital nomad, but yeah, look at how you brand yourself, the kind of like personal branding when you're interviewing for remote positions.
00:23:19,653 --> 00:23:22,018
Is that the advice that you would give?
00:23:22,244 --> 00:23:24,069
Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that.
00:23:24,069 --> 00:23:27,888
Look, my newsletter is called the Nomad Cloud and we're not changing that.
00:23:27,888 --> 00:23:31,597
At least, we haven't even thought about changing that at any point.
00:23:31,597 --> 00:23:36,016
So there's nothing wrong with being a digital nomad or using that word at all.
00:23:36,016 --> 00:23:43,679
My beef is more of the stereotype around it and and frankly, that was my stereotype, as I.
00:23:43,778 --> 00:23:55,575
If you would have asked me during my tech startup days in 2018, as I'm living in my office basically building my tech startup, if you would have said, oh, this person's a digital nomad, I would think, oh, they're not serious, they're not.
00:23:55,575 --> 00:23:56,378
Why would I hire them?
00:23:56,378 --> 00:23:57,443
They're just trying to find themselves.
00:23:57,443 --> 00:23:59,828
They're just trying to travel the world, which is not fair.
00:23:59,828 --> 00:24:12,297
Fair Now, obviously, adam in 2024, that's spent so much time traveling has met so many amazing nomads like yourself and I see, wow, I was so wrong with my perception and that's more of the issue.
00:24:12,297 --> 00:24:14,248
Now, I agree with you from a branding standpoint.
00:24:14,248 --> 00:24:26,115
If you have a resume or you're interviewing for a job, I'd probably find a different way to frame it, because there were people like me in 2018 that would have heard Digital Nomad and would have thought, hey, this might not be such a serious worker.
00:24:26,964 --> 00:24:27,185
Yeah.
00:24:27,185 --> 00:24:33,730
Do you think that people who are interviewing for remote positions that they should share that they travel?
00:24:33,730 --> 00:24:52,816
When you hire someone for your company, is that something that you are like, oh that's, I don't know if I want that, or do you welcome that, Because I mean, of course you also travel, but to hire someone who is a digital nomad and who shares okay, I traveled the world while working how do you see that?
00:24:53,905 --> 00:25:03,651
Well, I'm always going to be an advocate for honesty, so I would say I would, of course, be honest and say I do travel, or this is the lifestyle that I live and here's why I do it.
00:25:03,651 --> 00:25:08,734
I get inspiration from these places, but also I'm working on whatever your hours are.
00:25:08,734 --> 00:25:14,784
Trust is going to be key in any relationship, of course, and a key part of trust is being honest.
00:25:14,784 --> 00:25:20,186
So I would not shy away from that because, also, you don't want to work for an employer that wouldn't want you to travel.
