Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hey Nomads, welcome to Digital Nomad Stories, the podcast.
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My name is Anne Klaassen and, together with my co-host, kendra Hasse, we interview digital nomads.
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Why?
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Because we want to share stories of how they did it.
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We talk about remote work, online business, location independency, freelancing, travel and, of course, the digital nomad lifestyle.
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Do you want to know more about us and access all previous episodes?
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Visit digitalnomadstoriesco.
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All right, let's go into today's episode.
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Hey nomads, welcome to a new episode.
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Today I'm here with Tim Vaughan-Spencer of TV as Copy.
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He is a copywriter and non-digital nomad based in chiang mai, and I'm really excited to have you on the show today, tim, so welcome thanks for having me.
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I'm I'll be listening for a long time and, like I said, I'm not technically a digital nomad, now I still listen.
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I get quite a lot of value listening to the people we have on, so so, yeah, really happy to be on very cool.
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Yeah, so can you tell us a little bit more about what life looks like as a non-digital nomad, like I just called you, but like you're settled in Chiang Mai right?
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Yeah, as settled as you can be.
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I think I'm probably the older generation of people that, maybe being what they call themselves digital nomad.
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So technically I am, because I'm not a resident.
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But I came here a couple of years ago thinking I'd come for a few weeks, maybe a few months, and see what happened.
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And I went away last year for a few months, came back again and decided actually the first time around I was doing the Digital Nomad way, just meeting loads of people, going to all the meetups and getting super distracted and getting to know the city.
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But actually the more I grew to like it, the more I realized that actually maybe my traveling days are on pause for the moment.
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I quite enjoyed settling in, but Chiang Mai is an easy place to settle in too, so yeah, exactly.
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So what does your routine in Chiang Mai look like?
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Do you work a more like a nine to five Monday Friday schedule, or something completely different?
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And what else do you like to do when you're working?
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yeah, I suppose I've fallen into a bit of a nine to five, but it's not in terms of.
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I tend to work during the daytimes and not so much in the evenings, but I'm I'm freelance, so I'm pretty flexible with that.
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Um, quite happy to work at weekends, if that's what it takes, and then take some time off during the week.
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But a typical day?
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Yeah, I now use a co-working space, so I have done for quite a long time now and I find that quite nice, just to have somewhere that feels like somewhere to go that I'm going to work.
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But, yeah, it's an easy city to stay active in as well.
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So a typical day for me might be to get up in the morning, go for a walk.
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I'm lucky I've just moved to somewhere in the foothills of the mountains.
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I'm right in the middle of nature, which is nice.
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I feel like that's nice too.
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I don't think I appreciated it when I was younger, but now it's quite nice to get out and be amongst nature and get your vitamin D in the morning.
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And while there's a lot more science about that now but there wouldn't have been before I do get quite a lot of value from that.
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Um, but I'm also someone who likes to do everything in the morning.
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I always feel like the morning is my best time, so I always think it's probably my best time to work as well.
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It's my best work to train, best work to time to go for a walk.
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It's a it's.
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I change up my routine sometimes because I don't like falling into routine.
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I think my career before copywriting was very non-routine, so I don't think I found myself getting stale quite quickly, so that will change sometimes.
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But yeah, I tend to spend my daytimes in the co-working space or, if I really need to concentrate, go to the university library because it's a bit quieter there, but um, fewer distractions, but um, and then, yes, chiang mai is famous for its food, so it's the evenings tend to be more centered around going and finding somewhere different to go and eat or um, and then go and work it off if I'm really really sensible.
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But my party day is beyond me, but that's also well, not beyond me behind me largely.
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But.
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But chiang mai is.
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A lot of your listeners have probably been to chiang mai at least once.
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I know you have.
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But it's not a party city, but it's a great, livable city.
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So it almost feels like, very quickly.
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You can just settle into a lifestyle here quite quickly that you can build, especially if you're a freelancer, so I don't have to work during the day.
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Nine to five, co-working space, I mean, it's 24 hours for people who work in american time and it's actually coming in here at night or five or six in the morning.
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It's actually quite nice because it's quiet, but uh, but yeah, that's a routine I had.
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I'm not so much the five o'clock in the morning kind of going out, but um but yeah, so it's a non-digital nomad.
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Digital nomad lifestyle in that we are still very close to, uh, vietnam, now cambodia, malaysia.
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So a trip that I'm from the uk and a trip into europe for a weekend, going to barcelona that was quite a nice thing to do or rome, or wherever we.
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Our weekend trips are to Hanoi and Kuala Lumpur and Hoi An and places like that.
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So in some ways I'm making it sound like it's boring, but it's not much different.
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It's just a different culture and different lifestyle and different budget too.
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Yeah, exactly what's the community like in Chiang Mai?
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I know that a few years ago, when I was traveling and nomading in southeast asia, it was so big for digital nomads, right, everyone went to chiang mai.
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It was such a huge community.
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But I also, like I know that a lot of places changed a lot after covid, like either there's even more community or less, or different.
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Like did you?
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Like what's your experience?
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Are people staying more long-term or short-term, and is there still a big digital nomad community?
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So yeah, it is interesting actually, because I came here in 2018 for the first time.
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I only came for 10 days and, to be honest, I thought, yeah, I've done it.
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It was nice and there's a nice city and there's mountains and you can go and do stuff.
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I thought I can go and do stuff.
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I thought I didn't know if I'd ever come back, but at that time, even though I was, I was I.
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That was my first foray into digital nomadism.
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I suppose I probably was one then I.
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It was thriving, as in there's always something going on, there are always meetups, always groups, um, and it was known as and it still is in a way, and that is that the first stop off for most people if they're a digital nomad.
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It's the easiest, it's cheap and basically, if you're going to start anywhere, you start in Chiang Mai and spread out.
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A lot of people might have stayed or gone and then come back exactly like I fell into that trap.
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So, yeah, it was really thriving then.
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And then I came back two years ago, so it was just as Thailand was coming out of their COVID restrictions, because they're quite a bit slower than other countries coming out of it, so getting it was it was a bit tricky not tricky, but there were lots of quarantines to do and things like that and I came in just after that, but Chiang Mai was really quiet.
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I was actually quite surprised.
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It's actually quite sad.
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Um, a lot of businesses went open and there wasn't really a digital nomad scene.
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There were quite a lot of expats that had stayed.
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There were a lot of digital.
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I made quite a few friends of people that had come for a few weeks during COVID but then either found it difficult to get out or thought they wouldn't be able to get back in and just stayed.
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And Thailand gave people permission to stay If they wanted a tourist visa.
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They just kept extending it.
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It was really quiet then.
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It is picking up now but I think because so many other places have popped up on the scene.
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So, while I went to Bali 2018 and 2019 as well, bali is now massive in relation, and I spent quite a bit of time in Da Nang last year and Da Nang is starting to become this year.
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Certainly, I went this year as well and it's a completely different scene there.
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I think next year that will be as big as Chiang Mai probably.
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Chiang Mai has just still got the draw because it has quite a lot of co-working spaces.
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It's a super easy city.
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You can still do some touristy stuff up here.
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People still want to come here.
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It's also just really easy.
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So I think I think five, six years ago I might not have stayed in chiang mai because I quite like the challenge of going to some of the other countries that I went to.
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Like vietnam is a challenge but and I've grown to like it better, but I I feel like chiang mai is, it is super easy to stay here.
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So really it's a mixture of expat and digital nomads.
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I don't feel like there are quite as many staying long term as there were.
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I think.
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I don't know, maybe trying to change that with some of the changes they're making to visas.
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But they're always talking about that.
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But I think, I think it's probably less on the radar than it was.
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They're still busy, it's still people still come through, but I feel like it's more, even more transient than it was.
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It's still busy, people still come through, but I feel like it's even more transient than it used to be, just on the basis that there's more competition now.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
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Yeah, it's interesting because I was actually in Bali during COVID, the first five months of COVID, with all the lockdowns.
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I was in Bali and I had that experience where it was completely empty.
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Some people were still around but there were basically no events.
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I remember one person threw this big house party and then I don't know if they even I don't think they got arrested.
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But you know, like the police came by and were like what the hell, you know?
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And I believe they even got kicked out of the country.
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Like they were like no, you cannot do that here, you can go back to where you came from.
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Goodbye okay which I think I mean is fair when you, when you, don't listen to the rules.
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So, yeah, that was really interesting.
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And then also Da Nang.
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I went there a few years ago and they were really building it up.
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Back then I remember there was so much construction but it was already very easy to live.
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So I can only imagine how cool it can be now when that community is really like picking up and becoming the next hotspot.
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That's really exciting.
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I honestly cannot wait to go back to Da Nang.
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I think I had I mean, I had such a good time there.
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So, yeah, it's just a time zone, time zone difference, but for you as a copywriter, I assume that that's not really a big issue, is that true?
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Do you mostly like, do you have a lot of meetings with clients?
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Or maybe also like tell me a little bit like, where are your clients typically for your business?
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Yeah, fortunately I don't have to sit in on meetings with teams.
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Generally, as a freelancer, it does tend to be certainly my target audience.
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I kind of work mostly with small businesses, entrepreneurs, and that's who I like to work with, so it tends to be one-on-one anyway and, yes, there'll be a meeting, two or three meetings perhaps, perhaps.
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But that means that I'm fairly time zone.
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Well, it doesn't really matter what time zone I'm in really, because I can be pretty flexible.
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I've got, I've had one or two clients in in in north america, canada, and that can be a little trickier.
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But actually in some ways it's not, it's 12 hours, 12, 13 hours, so it just means I'm an early riser anyway.
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So I'm quite happy to have a meeting which will be the end of the day for them, or right at the start of the day for me, or into the evening for me.
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So so no for me.
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I'm quite fortunate.
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I think that's one of the reasons I chose to go into copywriting just because there's quite a lot of freedom if you're a freelancer to work in your own time.
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It's also advantageous if you especially I've got three or four clients in, or this year I've had three or four clients in europe and in the uk, and actually you kind of get on six hours, five hours ahead, so it kind of gives me a whole morning.
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If I've got a deadline of nine o'clock in your time, in the central european time, then actually I've got the whole morning to to go over it and get it and get it in.
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So it actually gives me in some ways an extra half a day, sometimes just a tight deadline.
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But I've got clients everywhere, really so Australia, singapore, so which is a bit nicer when you're trying to get calls in, but generally take too many okay, yeah, cool.
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Yeah, that sounds amazing.
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There wasn't a conscious decision.
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Was that a reason why you went into copywriting?
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because of this time, I think I've always wanted to be a writer and I didn't really know how to do that and I had my career for 20 odd years.
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Before doing this, I used to run bars and restaurants in the uk and hospitality businesses in europe as well, so time wasn't really allowing for that and always had ideas and wanted to do it and then as marketing progressed, we kind of got into.
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I ended up doing email, newsletters and things for the businesses that I was running and I quite enjoyed doing that and during that I started learning a bit about copywriting, just on the basis I wanted to make sure that I was doing the best I could for the businesses really, but only on the basis that wasn't doing it to be a copywriter.
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I was doing on the basis that I just wanted to to see if actually if there were good ways of writing emails and newsletters to get out to customers and also chalkboard to pos in restaurant and things like that.
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It was quite interesting.
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It was really interesting to learn the psychology of it.
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So I was just using it in business really and then I decided after a long time probably too long that catering hospitality it's hard work and I used to take breaks every two or three years probably.
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I'd take breaks and quite often I'd come over to Thailand.
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I'd be coming over here on and off for 16 or 17 years, so I'd have the odd two or three months off here and there, just because you need a break from it, when some jobs you're doing 18, 90 hours a week and it's unsociable.
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And so I decided I don't know, that was 2018.
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I thought, right, I'm going to go and do something else and came over here, had a little break, decided I wanted to get into e-commerce actually got into Amazon, fba and continue with my copywriting through that, because I thought it would be helpful for that as well.
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For whatever reason, I had some family things.
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So I had to go back to the UK and pause that and went back and ran a restaurant for a while.
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But by then I'd already picked up copywriting skills and looked into whether I could do it for myself.
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When I was over here that first time 2018, 2019, for six, seven months, I started a blog and and really enjoyed that, and that's that's kind of where it started from.
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Really, I don't really do blogging and content writing.
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I'm very much copywriting, which, which, uh, it's, uh, there's.
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There's often a bit of confusion between the two and I'm finding there's a freelancer.
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But yeah, for the last four, four, five years is what I've been doing now.
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So so can you share a little bit more about the difference between content writing and copywriting, just for when people are listening and they're not entirely sure what the difference?
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is okay.
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Well, content writing is as a as a definition, I suppose.
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Say content, if you're writing content, you're writing blogs and articles.
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So the longer form um, so they are what are probably going to drive people to a website and drive people to where action might be taken.
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So another copywriter takes a hand mantle then, and copyright is the ones that write websites and write your landing pages.
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Quite often they're going to write email newsletters, email funnels and things like that, because it's all about creating an action.
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So we write persuasive copy as copywriters.
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Content writers all write the long form detailed, and seo is quite important for that, though that's tricky at the moment and google having some playing some games with the seo crowd, but then that's.
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That's kind of.
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That's one of the advantages of being somewhere like Chiang Mai, because it's such a big community.
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You're talking to people all the time in these industries and you end up picking up a lot about SEO and content writing just from being around people that do it.
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And, going back to what you said before, networking, it's a bit seasonal here, so we've just come out of what's called smoky season, when most people skip town, and I left for a little while as well.
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Now rainy season, but it's picking up a little bit.
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So suddenly there are a lot more networking events and then come november, there's a huge there's always a huge seo event here, as well.
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So, yeah, so you get to meet all these people and you learn a little bit about them.
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So actually you kind of end up creating your own little network and there are plenty of people.
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I've just been doing some work to a guy that in my co-working space that he just needed someone to write some stuff for a website and it just it was just over a coffee that that happened.
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So, whilst most of our clients operate, do cold outreach or referrals or find them on linkedin.
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Actually, if you're in an environment like this and you'd probably say the same for Bali and probably how Da Nang is going to go that actually one of the advantages of being in these communities and staying fairly longer term is that you kind of build some relationships with people who are living more the expat, digital nomad life and they're not necessarily moving around, but they're, they're working from, from another country.
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So the hybrid is you like?
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yeah, absolutely yeah.
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I mean, you can find new clients anywhere if you, if you see the opportunities and you have those coffees with people.
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I think that's super smart.
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What advice would you give people who are now listening and think, oh, copywriting actually sounds really interesting.
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I've also always wanted to be a writer.
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Like, where should people start?
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okay, I don't want to be a debbie downer, if that's a phrase, but copywriting I think all writing, or all writers, have had a challenging year or so because of uh, because of ai.
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Um, I think that's changing a bit now.
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I think people are generally realizing it can't produce what they hoped it might.
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So my advice would be to get into a community of copywriters as best you can online and start learning about it that way.
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I think the challenge for copywriters without too much experience is that it is still a challenge because AI isn't great but it can produce.
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If people know how to use it.
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It can produce what a junior copywriter might, and for a lot of people who might be potential clients, the problem is likely to be that they won't necessarily know the difference between great copy and good copy, and AI is probably going to produce something better than they can and they think that's enough.
00:18:00.251 --> 00:18:10.375
But actually copywriting going back a little bit to your question before is there's a lot of psychology in copywriting and a lot of research, and it's data driven largely.
00:18:10.375 --> 00:18:12.246
So I'm going to spend on a project.
00:18:12.246 --> 00:18:30.794
I'm going to spend 70 percent of my time researching and target audiences, building target personas, understanding the industry, because I don't necessarily know the industry, but I think it's not a prerequisite to be a good writer really, but it is probably a prerequisite to have a good understanding of English.
00:18:30.794 --> 00:18:33.987
We've got a huge advantage if English is your native language as well.
00:18:33.987 --> 00:18:40.006
But, yeah, that would probably be my advice Get into a community and you know what it's like.
00:18:40.086 --> 00:18:59.278
Online, people are going to say good things and bad things, but Finding a mentor is probably in one of those communities is probably quite a good way to start to get some really good advice, someone that isn't necessarily going to be asking you to pay for their course, but just to get some good, balanced advice.
00:18:59.278 --> 00:19:00.971
It is quite a supportive community.
00:19:00.971 --> 00:19:10.759
We don't really consider ourselves as competition with each other really because, like you just said, there's so many potential clients out there.
00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:14.713
Every business needs a copyright, whether they know it or not.
00:19:14.713 --> 00:19:16.352
It doesn't really matter what level they're at.
00:19:16.352 --> 00:19:25.775
To stay up with the competition and to keep their messaging consistent and reaching people in the right way.
00:19:25.775 --> 00:19:48.070
Getting them to take action is much harder than just writing about what your business does and listing out what your product is and what your service is that doesn't differentiate yourself from the next person that's doing it so yeah, so my advice would be just to find out as much as you can about it before jumping into it.
00:19:49.806 --> 00:19:50.971
There are lots of different ways of doing it.
00:19:50.971 --> 00:19:54.715
Plenty of agencies or companies that employ copywriters.
00:19:54.715 --> 00:19:56.913
There are lots of initiatives.
00:19:56.913 --> 00:20:05.035
If you go onto LinkedIn, you're going to find a lot of volunteer opportunities to get some experience if you really want to do it on the side.
00:20:05.035 --> 00:20:08.305
But as a freelancer it's freelancing, the same as any other industry.
00:20:08.305 --> 00:20:10.194
The hard bit is going out.
00:20:10.194 --> 00:20:14.172
You've got to go and find your own clients or you've got to build up a good name for yourself yeah.
00:20:15.115 --> 00:20:15.856
I'm maybe a little.
00:20:15.856 --> 00:20:28.153
I'm a slightly older generation, I'm probably my mind is probably still stuck in the traditional job syndrome in some ways and but I think if you're younger and you're, you understand so.
00:20:28.153 --> 00:20:33.431
So when I was growing up, when I was getting into the working world, there weren't online jobs.
00:20:33.431 --> 00:20:33.672
Really.
00:20:33.672 --> 00:20:44.955
It was all very much you go to work and you do a job, and it took me a while to get my mind set into the fact that I can earn money online, even though mine's not necessary.
00:20:45.096 --> 00:20:45.938
Yeah, and have a career.
00:20:45.938 --> 00:20:47.530
And have a career, it's not just earning money.
00:20:47.671 --> 00:20:51.507
It is a career, but yeah.
00:20:51.507 --> 00:20:58.673
So the caveat would be that being a freelancer is great when it's great, but it's a challenge when it's not.
00:20:58.673 --> 00:21:03.715
You've got to get out there, and I think nowadays I'm getting into it a little bit now.
00:21:03.715 --> 00:21:22.113
You've got to build yourself an audience and, considering that's what I do as a living, it's funny how it's easier to do it for other people and not so easy to do for yourself sometimes always, but I think that's that's a hurdle to get over, but I'd certainly say, get yourself into some kind of community and speak to some people about it.
00:21:22.634 --> 00:21:26.788
Plenty of facebook groups out there, there's some pretty good value cheap courses.
00:21:26.788 --> 00:21:32.613
And get onto some good YouTube channels and okay, they might encourage you to go on and do their course.
00:21:32.613 --> 00:21:46.136
But I think that, and be prepared to have to build a bit of an audience yourself and, whether it's on LinkedIn or on social media, you've got to be prepared to be able to talk about what you're doing really.
00:21:47.065 --> 00:21:50.566
So there's still a lot of work out there still.
00:21:50.707 --> 00:21:53.732
It's still an end, it's still a career.
00:21:53.732 --> 00:22:01.789
I'd definitely say is a good career, but you've got to take it, you've got to, you've got to do it yourself, really, which sounds stupid, but there's no shortcut.
00:22:01.789 --> 00:22:05.907
You do have to learn about the principles and learn about the psychology behind copywriting.
00:22:05.907 --> 00:22:12.196
It's not just writing clever words, because, uh, I think I made that mistake while I was running bars and restaurants.
00:22:12.196 --> 00:22:15.213
I think I'll write something clever, but actually clever is just memorable.
00:22:15.213 --> 00:22:17.766
It's not, actually it's not going to make anyone do anything, it's just.
00:22:17.885 --> 00:22:28.415
It's just it will stick in the mind rather than making anyone do anything right, no, that definitely makes sense and I think that's great advice to not do it alone.
